Prototype Avalon sport for Sale [Archive]

Bill Councill

12-31-2004, 03:33 PM

I'm a died-in-the-wool capitalist and believe that anyone should charge whatever price they desire when selling their possessions. Market theory, however, has proven that price is based upon demand.

Your really lovely and quite interesting Robin prototype has a very small market; that is, it is of interest generally only to collectors of brands who wish to collect all product lines, whether marketed or not, to create a comprehensive collection of that brand.

Additionally, Gibson has just reintroduced its Les Paul Junior for mass consumption with an aggressive sales price of $649.00, as advertised on musiciansfriend.com. I hate to be the messenger--we all know what happens to the messenger of bad news--yet, I want to inform the seller and the forum of the current market for the lovely Robin Avalon Sport prototype.

Would you consider publishing another price for your excellent Robin guitar given the information provided above? It could be that your current sales price is considerably too high considering current circumstances. As a true Robin Lover, I hate to submit this unfortunate news. Yet, if you wish to sell your guitar, I'm sure you would wish to know your competitive environment.

I wish you the best of luck on selling your Robin Avalon Sport at any price.

Best of luck,
Bill

Kevin Shows

12-31-2004, 04:51 PM

Wow, I think that may be the most reasoned and polite counter offer I've ever heard http://robinlovers.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif But here's a couple of comments from someone with no stake in the sale (and should probably mind their own business):

I disagree with the assumption that the market for the guitar is small. To me the selling point is that it's a Robin guitar in new condition, not that it's a prototype. Being a prototype is just a bonus, but I'd think anyone looking for a USA handmade LP style guitar would be interested (quite a big market).

Also, asking the seller to reduce his price because Musicians Friend is selling LP Jrs for some amount is like asking a BMW dealer to sell his $40k car for $15k because that's what the Kia dealer is asking for their cars. Comparing a custom guitar that's handmade in the US by a few people to the mass produced lower end Gibsons is apples and oranges to say the least. Don't forget the msrp for this guitar (prototype or not) is $1595.

Personally I think the asking price is very fair. In fact I would've picked it up in a heartbeat but I don't think I'd like the single pup configuration and I really don't prefer satin finishes. My bet is that if Jack listed it anywhere else (HC, Ebay, etc) it'd be long gone by now.

Again, just my opinion and really none of my business http://robinlovers.com/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Ken Jones

12-31-2004, 04:52 PM

Wow - thanks for bringing us all down, dude!

How much do you think a Gibson Les Paul Junior Prototype would cost? Have you ever priced the Juniors coming out of Gibson's Custom Shop? I seem to remember them being a bit pricey. If memory serves me correctly, they're about the same price as a "real" vintage Junior ($2K-$3K).

All that being said, if you want the guitar, make the seller an offer. Capitalism in action.

(BTW - about the only thing that is holding me back from buying this guitar is the matching headstock - IMO it would look a million times better with a black headstock.)

Ken Jones

12-31-2004, 06:49 PM

Wow - two (now three) consecutive posts that start with the word wow...

Now doesn't this look cooler?
http://robinlovers.com/discus/messages/7/1285.jpg

Bill Councill

12-31-2004, 09:14 PM

Post 1: I never expected so much response to my forum message, except perhaps from the owner. This message was written for a number of reasons, the first relating to sales of pre-owned--it is not politically correct to use "used" anymore--on the Internet of Robin vintage and recently purchased guitars. I have purchased a large number of pre-owned Robins in the last nine months. While I believe the market for used guitars is down rather uniformly now, Robins certainly are not selling for the value I attribute to them. For example, I purchased a Robin Wedge in mint, unused condition--maybe a good reason for not using the term "used" with vintage guitars--for less than USD $700.00, including a handsome Robin fitted case. As many of you know, I just purchased an almost brand new Robin Avalon Classic with Dolphin inlays for much less than $2000.00. For some reason, handmade Robins are not holding their value when compared with comparable assembly-line manufactured Gibsons.

I believe that capitalistic theory would posit that a handmade item should return more value, whether new or pre-owned than a thoroughly manufactured product. That is not the case with Robins currently. I don't know what market conditions are at work to suppress the price of even recently pre-owned Robins. But I can attest that Ken Shows' argument comparing the sales of cars to the sales of guitars is humbly and unfortunately without merit. I agree with Mr. Show's contention that selling Robins and Gibsons are like comparing apples to oranges, but the guitar market does not operate in the manner of his examples. First, my experience in watching the sales of guitars on eBay extensively for the last nine months suggests that "anyone looking for for a USA handmade LP style guitar would be interested." Recent experience demonstrates that folks selling their LP-like Robins have difficulty in even selling their guitars at the "Buy It Now" prices on eBay; that is, their preferred purchase prices. Too often lately, reserves on Robin guitars have not been met.

Individuals selling Robins do not set the price of their Robin guitars commensurate with the prices of Gibson Les Pauls. Instead, sellers of Robin LP-like guitars establish preferred sales prices generally at prices well below prices set by sellers of Gibson Les Pauls. I will not take the space here to prove my point; please just make a comparison if interested yourselves.

I am taking the time and making the effort to present these facts because I am a Robin Lover. I am in the process of attempting to purchase one of each Robin product line ever manufactured. It hurts me--believe it or not--to purchase a Robin Wedge for just less than $700.00 in mint condition with an unmarked case. I consider this guitar a more "outrageously"-designed guitar than any guitar sold in the present market to various Metal and Punk factions. It certainly is more stunning and aggressive in appearance than any guitar made today IMHO. Yet, the price is less than the prices of many of the more outrageous designs on the market today.

I would rather purchase--and actually have purchased--a pre-owned mint condition Robin Avalon Classic than a mint pre-owned or new Les Paul with similar features. Yet, the handmade Les Paul will sell for considerably more upfront than the Robin at the closing.

I have been challenged to put my form of capitalism in practice and make an offer for the LP Junior-like Robin Avalon Sports. As a Robin Lover I would like to see that the handmade Avalon Sports sold for considerably more than the LP Juniors now on sale on musiciansfriend.com. I would like to think that the purchase of a prototype would have significantly more value later than the standard model.

Bill Councill

12-31-2004, 09:16 PM

Post 2: My experience leads me to believe that because the market has a choice of a handmade Robin or a manufactured LP Junior, a briefly-owned LP Junior will depreciate less than the Robin. As Kevin Shows has already shown that the Robin has lost more than half its value in depreciation, I presuppose that a pre-owned LP Junior will lose only $200.00 to $300.00 at most to depreciation. I also believe that Mr. Shows big market would prefer the Les Paul Junior to the homemade Robin Avalon Sports and that prototypes are difficult to sale--I have purchased prototypes and know that unless I were a collector of certain brands of prototypes, the prototypes are not likely to sell or will sell for a pittance.

I've wasted enough of your time already, but I believe we must determine why the expensive Robin guitars we purchase new depreciate so much more than comparable guitars despite the fact that they are superior in most ways and are made by dedicated luthiers throughout almost the whole process. How much will I pay for the Robin Avalon Sport. I would like to say $1,000.00. Based on market factors described above I am now offering $475.00 for the guitar so that I may expand my collection. I will pay that price because I am attempting a rather comprehensive Robin collection, and also because I do collect prototypes. Neither the fact that the Sport has only one pickup or has a nonstandard headstock matters to me.

In summary, I believe Robin Lovers must assess Robin Guitars' place in the marketplace and what we as owners of Robin Guitar's guitars can do to enhance the value of pre-owned guitars in the current marketplace under the existing market conditions. I suspect that as owners of Robins our willingness to sell Robin guitars at such low prices is somewhat responsible for setting potential owners' perceptions of the value of pre-owned Robin guitars. In the case at point, I would like to have seen an initial price of $1,000.00 on the Sport. Now I would like some Robin owner to purchase the guitar at its stated value of $750.00. Still, my offer remains on the table based on current market realities (that I would like to see changed). In the Spirit of exacting, almost completely man-made Robin guitars, Bill

Smitty

12-31-2004, 10:22 PM

I'll just cut to the chase and say put me down for $600 on it and I don't even need it...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Smitty

Ken Smith

12-31-2004, 10:49 PM

The assertions that Robins are not holding value are spot on. After extensive research, I found that they offer the absolute best bang for the buck available today. That is one big reason why I now play nothing but Robins.

As discomforting as this fact is, it is current reality. Supporting my theory are the facts about the two Robins I purchased pre owned. One is an Avalon, 1994, amber finish on Swamp Ash. It is absolutely mint, with the exception of an added coil tap switch. I paid $480 for it with a perfect case. My Houston Ranger, which has three Strat single coils and a Wilkinson trem, and is itself quite scarce, was bought with case for $425. , And it is in very good 9.0 of 10.0 condition. I must say, that when I purchased these guitars, I felt like I was doing something unethical in getting such stunning quality at ridiculously low prices.

Just yesterday, I was in Rockin Robin looking at a stunning new Slabtop Supreme Ranger. The store offered to sell it to me for $1350 with case. And this guitar, though hanging in the store for about a year, is new.

I am a die hard Robin loyalist, but find it very hard to pay new retail price for ANY guitar. Not when you can have the cat's meow off of eBay for a pittance.

Anyhow, this whole scene, while working to my personal advantage, is surely a difficult thing for Dave and the guys at Robin. I wish it were not so. If it continues, I can only guess what will happen. Our unwillingness to support the pre owned market with better prices undoubtedly pressures Dave and crew. How do we combat this?

1.) I for one will never sell any of my Robins. Nor will I own another brand. I think we have to believe in this sort of like a religion. So every Robin I get hold of will be out of circulation for good. I honestly would not trade my Avalon for any LP I have ever played. (Well if it was an original '59 maybe I would, but just for financial reasons). If we all hold them out of the market, I think this situation will improve.
2.) Evangelize the brand. I cannot count the number of new guitarists and shredders alike that I have told the Robin story to. And the appearance of the Pro line only makes the story more enticing. A friend, who is a newbie and recently bought his first guitar had his heart set on a Strat. So I took my Ranger along with us to the music store. He was stunned to learn (and feel) that my "cheap" Ranger was more resonant and vibrant than the $2200 Fender Custom shop guitar. It took me most of the day, but this guy changed his mind and bought a Ranger Pro.
3.) Dream up some other promotional events like the guys did for the Robin Reunion. I would even volunteer my time and support to some "street team" sort of group like some music groups have.
4.) When you do sell, don't whore the market up. Price it based on what you know rather than what someone else tells you it is worth.

I think we need to collectively think about how to support prices. If we don't things may take a turn for the worse, and I would hate to see that happen. My advice, though I realize that it is not worth much, is to stand firm on that price. When it makes someone's heart sing, it will be worth $750 to them. And if the buyer's heart does not sing... well we wouldn't want him to have that special piece anyway, now would we?

Kizanski

01-01-2005, 03:43 AM

Bill, although I agree with a lot you are saying, I think you might be missing one major point regarding the "value" of a used Robin Guitar.
I am not about to debate how these guitrs stack up to the competion. Suffice it to say, I am a believer in the product, and I think that all of us here feel the same way (or we wouldn't BE here, correct?). This was further cemented during my trip to Houston this past October, and prompted me to offer to give the Web site a makeover.
The problem is that our idea of the value of these guitars in not the issue. The fact is, the resale on these guitars is not what it should be, cosidering the quality of the product, and the value when new.
I have said a million times that ebaY is a global market place. If an item is for sale and consistently brings in a certain dollar amount, then that's what it's worth. A more experienced seller can command more of a sale price than others, but that is also within a reasonable amount (see the thread where Smitty ebaYed a guitar recently).
Do the sale prices of these used Robins reflect the quality contained within? Absolutely not, but holding fast at your price will not "drive the mean price up," that is achieved by the consumers' familiarity with the product.
Let's not forget that these guitars were made in two different plants in Japan for a number of years. These are good guitars, but the perception is that Japanese guitars are not as good as USA guitars. There are enough examples to both back up and refute that statement, but let's just admit for the time being that there are a number of players out there that will never buy a Japanese guitar, due to a perceived lack of quality.
I have spoken to dozens of player since my trip to the Robin factory 3 months ago, and I have received a wide range of responses when the brand name is mentioned.
"Robin still makes guitars?"
"They're made in Japan, right?"
"Oh yea...they made guitars in the '80's."
"Great guitars! Where are they made now? Houston? You're kidding?"
This is where we must start to "evangelize," as Ken put it. No one is better than this than our own Allen Hill. Talk to him about Robin guitars for 5 minutes and you WILL buy!
We as players/collectors/bedroom bandits need to tell our guitar friends and aquaintences about Robin Guitars. Even better, put one in their hands. If they still want a Gibson or a Fender because of name recognition and resale value, you can just chalk it up to poor taste or ignorance.

Kevin Shows

01-01-2005, 12:18 PM

Just so everybody doesn't get too depressed, I wanted to mention that Robins are not alone in this quality vs name recognition vs resale value dilemma. If you go to the discussion sites of most upper end US made guitars (Heritage, G&L, Hamer, etc) you'll hear the exact same comments and arguments.

The "name on the headstock" mentality also carries over into amplifiers where handmade quality and original designs battle against the Fender/Marshall name and perceived resale value.

I, for one, promise to do my part and buy every Robin I see (ok, within reason) and never sell one. And btw, guitars will always be used not pre-owned, I hope I never get that that PC http://robinlovers.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Now someone buy Jack's Avalon so I don't have to and we can get this thread back on track ...

John Williams

01-01-2005, 01:09 PM

Coming from someone who has seen the new Gibson Jr.I can attest to it's mediocrity.It's simply a mass produced,non-resonant,no personality,chrome plated Epiphone.$649.00 is highway robbery for this guitar compared to $750.00 for Jack's.Long live Robin.

Bill Councill

01-01-2005, 10:06 PM

Post 1: I'm so glad to have initiated this interesting and rather exciting thread. Kevin Shows in quite correct in his most recent posting concerning the aptly and creatively named "name on the headstock mentality." I have many friends who own guitar and music stores. Those store owners whom unfortunately don't own the franchises to one or more of the "big three" brands--namely, Fender, Gibson, and Marshall--are experiencing what one termed, "a very down market." Those who own one or more of the big three franchises and also own a Robin franchise can help potential purchasers of Fender and Gibson guitars recognize the superior values inherent in the almost completely handmade Robin guitars. Nevertheless, their bread and butter is the number of the big three franchises they own; those who own two or less or unfortunately none have to rely on their sales ability, expert marketing, location, and now their skills at selling on the Internet, as well as eBay.

We all have seen the consolidation of automobiles into the from hundreds of companies ot the "big three," which is solidly challenged by Japanese automakers that may dismiss the concept of the big three from our common vocabularies. There will be further consolidation minimizing sales from niche carmakers. Yet, niche carmakers, such as Porsche, do not experience a significant depreciation in the value of their cars compared with the big three automakers.

Why then do Robin guitars, which I believe are comparable to Porsches in quality and attention to detail and handworkmanship, experience such a rapid and considerably large depreciation of their guitars as soon as the Robin is sold.

I believe the answer is name recognition. Whereas Porsche is a well recognized brand name; even many professional guitarists are unaware of the Robin brand. Because of Robin Guitars lack of recognition, their guitars rapidly depreciate causing the company to compete, I believe, primarily with its own potential retail customers, that is with their current roster of owners. This is the reason Ken Smith remarks, "After extensive research, I found that they offer the absolute best bang for the buck available today." Recognize, however, that Mr. Smith is talking about the pre-owned Robin market, not the retail market.

I agree firmly with Mr. Smith about purchasing pre-owned Robin guitars. If Robin Lovers are willing to wait long enough, they will soon find the guitar of their desires, if not dreams, on eBay or on some other Internet sales site.

I dare posit that Robin's greatest competition is with itself as a company. I bemoan this state of affairs. Robin can be, and should be, the analog of Porsche in the guitar marketplace. To achieve this status requires that Robin launch a high dollar value advertising campaign with the primary mission at achieving name recognition. Without widespread market recognition, Robin will become more like very many of the boutique amplifier makers whose primary competition is with owner/sellers of their amplifiers.

Like Ken Smith recommends, I will never sell any of my Robins--remember that my goal is to collect one of each product line of Robin guitars from their inception to the present--and I will buy nothing (almost) but Robins. but, I'm speaking to the choir. I believe this thread has grown so long and has garnered so many contributors simply because we share a common goal; that is, we all wish to purchase Robin guitars throughout our lifetimes and receive a greater return on sales of our investments in Robin guitars. As multiple purchasers of the brand and believers in the comparatively greater quality of the guitars, it is my perception that we are all concerned about our Robin guitars' depreciation and are appalled and perhaps confused at why the brand slips so in the secondary market.

Bill Councill

01-01-2005, 10:07 PM

Post 2: I also sense a concern for the viability of Robin Guitars, especially since we recognize that the rapid, financial depreciation of the guitars affects not only us, but more importantly, it is bound to adversely affect the earnings of the company eventually as the company settles into a pattern of competing against its own aged products.

As a collector/player, I prefer Robin guitars to their competition among all their competitors. I would also like to be a member of a large well-recognized club, rather than a paticipant in a niche guitar company's forum. I would like for most purchasers of Gibson's Les Paul guitars to experience the conflict of which guitar to buy once they have heard or played both guitars. Alas, these are my wishes, but I recognize that our concerns are management's grist for their mill. Because of my awareness of the significant losses of market share and the loss of financial valuation of niche amplifier companies as they settled into competing with their previously high quality handmade amplifiers, I am concerned that without some internal marketing changes, Robin is bound to follow the same path of those beloved niche amplifier companies. How the company is run is none of my business. But my concern for the company and its great products warrants a note to the company's owners about my hopes that they have plans for increasing market share so that the guitars we buy reflect throughout the guitar marketplace the quality of the company's work product and the pride we experience as owners of the brand.

Jack, I will pay $750.00 for the Robin Avalon Sports guitar if yhou are willing to wait 14 to 20 days for payment. Because of my purchase of three Robin guitars on the secondary market in the last two weeks, I am a little thin on current disposable income. Yet, within the next week I may be able to purchase the guitar. I just cannot contract to purchase the guitar, however, for twenty days. My eBay profile is evidence of my consistent on-time payments during the contracted period for more than 120 auctioned products during a nine-month purchasing period. If you will just give me the time, I will indeed purchase your guitar at the very fair initial price. I agree with John Williams' assessment of Gibson's competitive product. I am concerned that my headstock not display "Gibson," but, rather always Robin. Please, let's take this offline. Contact me via e-mail at bcouncil@cbseng.com or call me at 602-254-0970. I sincerely hope it is our fate to consummate this proposed transaction and allow all our Robin Lovers a holiday respite.

A proud Robin Lover and collector/player,
Bill

BCRGreg

01-02-2005, 01:08 AM

Am I the only one who takes this sort of thing a little less seriously than comparing Robins to automobiles and such?

Bill, I applaud all the time you put into your ehxaustive entreaties here, but IT'S A GUITAR!!!! One guy selling one guitar that is WAY superior to any POS Gibson scrapwood guitar will not have a huge effect on the market perception of Robin. You either GET the Robin thing or you don't. I get it, all of us here do as well.

PLAY THEM, and love them, kids.

If you bought stuff based on resale, you wouldn't buy toilet paper, would you?

Kizanski

01-02-2005, 01:13 AM

Toilet paper...thanks for that mental image.

Bill Councill

01-02-2005, 04:01 AM

BCRGreg - Perhaps you don't care that the guitar you or a friend bought six months ago had a retail sales price of USD $3,495.00 and actually sold for $2,850.00; but at the time of resale retains less than 50 percent of its RSVP and 64 percent of the intitial sales price. I do. I believe all supporters of the company and its products should. Its my experience that smart purchasers do buy based on resell value. I've seen kids buying Gibson Les Pauls after saving for years for such expensive guitars. The rationale of some of these adolescent skilled guitarists: they hope at the time they want to sell their LP that it will retain enough of its value to trade for a comparable or better guitar.

I do take product value retention seriously; nevertheless, so far I'm the only Robin Lover to offer Mr. Kennedy full price for his Robin Avalon Sports. The fact is--as I stated previously--I would have paid $1,000.00 for the same guitar. Perhaps if some of the senior members of this forum cared more about these issues, there would be less concern about whether I resell my used toilet paper.

Bill Councill

01-02-2005, 04:15 AM

After reviewing these posts, I propose that Robin Lovers show more unconditional love here and less sniping. I'd like to think we're all involved in this forum for the same purposes. They are IMHO (1) selling and buying Robin guitars; (2) sharing concerns about the sales or purchasing of Robins; and (3)providing a supportive exchange of ideas that might assist the owners of Robin guitars to understand the concerns of members of the forum about sales, reselling, and purchasing of Robins. Let's conduct ourselves in a manner that encourages more discussion.

BCRGreg

01-02-2005, 02:49 PM

Bill, take a look at home electronics, sporting goods, arts and craft supplies. You'll see the same or WORSE resale ratios. Face it, nobody NEEDS this stuff, it is a leisure activity item for the vast majority of guitar buyers. It's a fact that most people want the best deal, regardless of where it comes from. Go around your town and count the Mom and Pop groceries. How many Five n Dimes do you see? The typical American wants PRICE, service and intrinsic brand loyalty are small factors if ever.

To condemn the responses to you posts is off base, as well. This forum is voluntary, so each member has every right to post his or her view, whether it fits the mean or not.

As to your experience about buying based on resell, mine is quite different. I spent years touring, and bought many guitars for their resale value but MOST for their utility or uniqueness. My store has survived 10 years in a dwindling sector of music retail, the small service oriented clubhouse type. Naturally, I stock my store based on resale of the products, but utility and uniqueness are the main factors for carrying any brand that I sell new. My mission statement is that I won't offer a product line unless I would own the stuff as a player.

By the way, I guess that you will now pay $1,000 for the Avalon, right?

Bill Councill

01-02-2005, 04:36 PM

BCRGreg - You have totally missed my concerns about the resale values of Robin guitars. My major theme is that Robin Guitars' primary competition is its own previously sold guitars. Marketing reality is that selling against your own products minimizes new growth potential. To use your own misguided and uneducated examples, Robin guitars offer no uniqueness nor greater utility than other guitar makers. I prefer Robin guitars to all others; yet, I don't purchase Robins based on uniqueness nor utility. There pointedly is none. Yes, we as Robin Lovers recognize that Robin guitars are superior to most other guitars. The problem for Robin Guitars--which you have yet to address--is that it is a niche company that is generally unrecognized in the marketplace. With lack of marketplace recognition and increasing competition with its own previously sold products, Robin Guitars is in danger of losing new market share to its own previously produced guitars. What are the company's likely responses to the current marketing situation. The first is to raise prices on its new guitars. The company has already announced that it is raising prices for the next year by approximately $100.00 for year 2005 with some of its product lines (as I have been informed by a prominent retailer). As you describe so fluently, "Americans want PRICE." Robin Guitars may be pricing itself outside even above other boutique vendors, such as Tom Anderson, Suhr, Melancon, and others. If increases in retail pricing positively affected resell prices, that might be a positive move. Increasing prices in the past has not resulted in higher resell prices. Therefore, Robin's only opportunity to gain more market share is to launch a costly and effective name recognition advertising campaign. Ken Smith in his personal description of his buying habits and his concern for the viability of Robin Guitars demonstrates that without change purchasers will prefer pre-owned Robins to retail Robin guitars. Thus, if he is correct, and I believe he is, the company will devote more valuable resources and continue to increase prices to compete with its own previously sold guitars rather than competing effectively with other niche guitar builders, much less Gibson or Fender. If this pattern continues, Robin is likely to become--really, I suspect it already is--a takeover target for purchase by one of the larger guitar manufacturers or some entertainment company wishing to expand its holdings into the guitar market to enhance the sales of other entertainment-related products.

On yet another point, you misunderstood me once again when I suggested that form members conduct themselves in their postings with decorum. I didn't condemn any members' points-of-view, I stated simply that some members' posts were written in such a manner as to discourage further discussion. An example is the last sentence of your last post. Now does that question encourage others' discussion or is there another motive for its inclusion? To tell you of my personal response, such comments as that and the toilet paper question tend to cause me to want to avoid further discussion within this forum. As a senior member, I reiterate, I hope that you wish to encourage discussion rather than demean others so as to discontinue further discussion. I believe other members can determine the worthiness of such statements for themselves, thus permitting me to avoid responses in kind.

Paul

01-02-2005, 04:58 PM

Hey! Hey! I have never read so much about so little. I agree Greg. Bill should buy the Avalon for $1000.

Smitty

01-02-2005, 06:37 PM

A few points:

--Robin is doing a couple things very well at the moment: (1) they have added staff to support and to expand their dealer network, and (2) they are building some KILLER guitars. Slabtop Supremes have no equal in the market at that price point, IMO.

-- Your opinion, after 9 months of observation, is that the Robin resale market is bad; my opinion, based on 7 years of observation, is that it's improving.

Bill, you have made some pretty broad assertions about the market (niche amps, teen buying habits, LT viability of Robin, etc) which are all fodder for passionate and potentially heated response. Don't be surprised or offended when/if it comes. I encourage everyone to stay friendly here, but when you paint with a very wide brush, don't be surprised if some are critical of the details of your handiwork.

Y'all have a good day.

Smitty

BCRGreg

01-02-2005, 06:51 PM

After 9 months, you are a senior member. Hmmmm.

Robin offers nothing unique?

I missed your point?

Your offer of $475 is totally against your bemoaning the resale values.

I stand by the "toilet paper" remark, I have said it for years and I feel that it states my point quite well.

Bill, I have nothing more to say to you, except that you obviously want to hear what you want to hear. That does not encourage discussion at all.

Good luck in all that you do.

DCWalters

01-02-2005, 08:46 PM

I have not posted in a while so here it goes! I have been reading this ongoing battle of opinions and I have to say "PLAY NICE". We are all here to support and appreciate Robin guitars, everyone needs to relax becuase things are fixin' to get real ugly.

We all have our reasons for playing these fine guitars, some appreciate the hand made quality for a good price (new), others like the hand made quality for the price (used), whatever your chosing new or used if you are happy with the cash you are shelling out, GREAT, play y'er guitar and shutup!

Like all guitars; the values can and do go up, some faster than others. I have been watching Robins on ebay for a few years and have noticed a steady increase in prices. So,IMHO buy them cheap while you can!

BCRGreg

01-02-2005, 09:10 PM

You betcha!

Kizanski

01-02-2005, 09:49 PM

"The problem for Robin Guitars--which you have yet to address--is that it is a niche company that is generally unrecognized in the marketplace."

I believe I said that already (and with a brain swimmimg in booze at that).

Word of advice kids: You should NOT chug-a-lug Southern Comfort (but hey, it was New Years Eve).

Chollie

01-03-2005, 03:04 AM

Hey, I'm a kid, and I ordered a robin. After seeing the things i've seen that some of the things the big two have been putting out I'm disgusted. and this is a guy who owns 8 imports, and finally made the conversion to usa made. Does this mean I'll stop buying Fenders and Gibsons probablly not, I have two ideas for Fender strats I've been thinking about, but there's no way I'm buying them new. as far as gibsons, I've had a friend open up a White Gibson Les Paul Custom at a "Small shop killer" and to my suprise (not really) the wiring was trashed. Wires were extremely long tangled and mangled and half the solder joints are broken. And he opened up a used Hamer Artist that they got in that day and there was no excess wire everything was straight neat and tidy. at one point in time I would've loved to have a real gibson les paul but now i can't justify it. If I'd have to spend 1500-2000 on a Les Paul, I'll just drive to the local shop and order an avalon and know that money was well spent on quality

Jack Kennedy

01-03-2005, 01:44 PM

Hello Everyone ,
I must admit that I have been away from the computer for a few days. I had no idea what awaited and am a bit overwelmed with all that has been commented on ( I realize none of it was directed at me :-).
I purchased this guitar because it is an extremely
well made and incredible sounding, playing instrument. What also contributed too towards the purchase was John Williams (Joyful Noise Music) excellent representation of Robin Guitars and his positive personality .
The reason I am selling it is too purchase a Robin Medly Pro in 2005 that better suits my playing niche. I own four Robin Guitars.
This Guitar had everything done right from the beginning , but then all my Robins have the same consistency in Quality. It was purely accidental that it was a prototype purchase because I don't collect instruments . I play them....:-)
I had in my hands a Gibson Custom Shop LP Junior (used in mint shape) about 10 months ago. The retailor was asking $1200 and someone did buy it at that price.
However, this guitar was no where near the quality of my Robin Avalon Sport . Basic areas of criticism would include: tone , resonance , sustain , acoustic qualitys unplugged , setup , glue joints , design , the list goes on.
I have taken losses on guitars selling or trading
( Gibson , Fender ). Most of the time , trading or selling we take a hit , thats seems to be the case. Other then that I don't really know what too say :-)
Thankyou,
Jack Kennedy
Blue Lightning

Jim Lee

01-03-2005, 08:24 PM

I have lurked here for a year, and I finally felt it time to contribute, so here goes. Unfortunately this thread has turned into an emotional dismissal of some people's ideas, but I think some salient points have been made that we as consumers of the Robin brand have a right to investigate. This post is not intended to offend, though surely it will. That being said, I think the short-sighted and emotional dismissal of the ideas of Mr. Smith and Mr. Councill are decidedly counterproductive.

It has been implied that people buy Robins for their "utility and uniqueness". I beg to differ. Consumers buy most any product based on one parameter. That parameter is perceived value. Everything else is a subordinate to this value judgment.

Now, what contributes to perceived value? Three primary things - price, quality, and brand equity.

We all know that Robin, in their sales strategy is not taking a price
leadership marketing position. The imports are doing that. Robin is pursuing premium pricing (albeit only a moderate premium) justified by the quality of its products. This being known, it is patently obvious to anyone with business acumen that poor resale values undermine this marketing positioning. The poor resale value of Robins, as demonstrated by Mr. Smith, definitely cost Robin premium-priced new sales. Low resale values are entirely indicative of a deficiency in the perceived value equation. Extant used examples of Robins available for a pittance become Robin's primary competition, as Mr. Councill has stated emphatically. This is Marketing 101, folks. Comments like “IT’S A GUITAR, and not a car!” miss the fundamental truth that most products, including guitars, behave according to well known marketing tenets.

Concerning brand equity, Robin has little Brand Equity outside its circle of lovers, as demonstrated by the post of Kizanski. Mr. Councill properly pointed out that currently Robin is a niche player. Without brand equity, a company can be nothing else! Gibson's scrapwood SG is the perfect example of a marketing position that exploits brand equity. Robin does not have this luxury.

Which brings us to quality. Robin has long positioned itself as a maker of quality instruments, and with good reason. Their quality at the moderately premium price point was and is unbeatable. This brings me to the most important point in this post. Should Robin lose ability to position its product based on quality, it will have essentially lost whatever market identity it currently has.

It is with reservation that I disclose the following information, as it is sure to cause upheaval in this community. Nonetheless, it needs to be discussed.

I currently own a '97 Ranger. Nine months ago, I also purchased a 2004 Ranger Standard. I am sad to say that the neck finish of the 2004 instrument is of nowhere near the quality as the older instrument. As a matter of fact, it has the poorest neck finish job I have ever seen on a guitar, and this includes the $79 Saga guitar kits on eBay.

Continued in Post 2

Jim Lee

01-03-2005, 08:28 PM

Here are the issues with the newer guitar:

1.) The maple neck is absolutely full of sanding marks. Many of the sanding marks run perpendicular to the length of the neck. This is a sign that finish sanding was inadequate, or absent. There is simply no excuse for this.
2.) The finish on the neck is much thinner than the older guitar. After nine months of play, the finish along the edges of the fretboard has already worn through to bare wood.
3.) The guitar had massive orange peel in the neck finish. I had to buff the neck with steel wool to get a playable surface.
4.) The drilled holes for the position markers exhibit drill bit tearout.
5.) The neck has several grain imperfections and severe mineral streaking in the wood.
6.) There are clumps of finish in the truss rod adjustment hole

Now, the body finish is impeccable, as is the general fit of the components. When I look at the guitar as a whole, I cannot help but wonder if the neck was actually made by the same craftsmen that made the body. If it was, then why devote such meticulous attention to the body, but neglect the more important part of the guitar?

Even more alarming to me is the fact that my new guitar does not seem to be an anomaly. I have examined no less than four new 2004 Rangers at showrooms, and I have found the same issues in all recent
examples I have seen, from Pros to Slabtops. Further, I have spoken with another purchaser of new 2004 Ranger and their experience is consistent with mine. My contention is that poor quality in any component should not be present at all in a guitar that is positioned as a premium quality instrument.

You say, so why did you buy it? Good question. The simple answer is that the sound of the instrument is magical. The tonewoods are the absolute best I have experienced at any price point. The guitar with
the second rate neck finish has more resonance and vibrancy in tone than any guitar I have ever laid hands on, bar none. So, in that aspect, the Robin magic is still there. So I bought.

I now pose a pointed question to this community. Is my experience an anomaly? Take off the emotional blinders and ask yourself if the new product measures up to the outstanding quality that sold us in the first place. If it does, then we have nothing to worry about, and I am the outlier. But if it does not, then I believe we deserve an explanation.

Any experienced marketing person knows that the easiest of the three perceived value parameters to manipulate is the quality parameter. And I fear that it is being manipulated in a negative manner. This commonly occurs in outsourcing arrangements. I would not blame Robin for outsourcing some component production. Most companies do it. But quality must be maintained, so long as Robin pursues a quality-based market positioning. Outsourcing is not necessarily a problem, but we as consumers should know if it is occurring.

So now I close with a request that Robin management address the issues I, and others have raised. Are you outsourcing and is this the reason for the quality issues I have seen? If you are not, then why has quality slipped? Are you going to address these quality issues?

We, as devoted consumers, need to know.

Thank you for reading. Now, let the flames begin!

And, in order to keep all discussion on the board, please do not try to flame me at my personal email address. Thanks, J D Lee

Smitty

01-03-2005, 09:50 PM

Okay, I'm gonna jump in here before a shitfest starts.

First, with regard to "dismissal of some of Mr Council's ideas," well, some of them needed to be dismissed.

Secondly, Did you talk to your dealer about the issue with the neck? Did you talk to the factory about the finish issues? You're in Houston, did you consider taking the guitar to the factory so that they could examine the situation? Nothing in your post would indicate you did.

What dealers had the "inferior" necks? Without a doubt, I am sure this is something the factory would like to know about sooner, not later...

Third, Necks are not outsourced. We all saw necks in various stages of production at the last factory tour.

Finally, Yes, the finish is different than on the 97 Rangers... I'm not going to go into the details; I would rather leave that explanation open for either Dave or Allen from Robin. The trend in the industry has moved from a heavy gloss finish to a light satin finish; I played a new Grosh this week and it was hard to tell if there was any finish on the neck at all...

That said, if you really felt like you had an inferior product I'm very curious to know if you gave your dealer or the company any opportunity to make it right.

After your post, I went and inspected the neck on my late 2004 Wrangler. Beautiful.

I am NOT saying that you didn't have a problem. If you think I'm flaming you for suggesting that this shouldn't be the first place anyone heard about it, then so be it. I would encourage you to contact the factory tomorrow.

Smitty

BCRGreg

01-04-2005, 12:30 AM

Jim,

You must have seen some Saga kits that are different from the ones that many of my customers buy.

As to the other 4 Rangers in showrooms, did you see if the serial numbers were similar? Maybe a bad run? I doubt it. I have several headstocks that were sawn off of necks that didn't make the "cut", pardon the pun. I looked at and selected several necks in various states of completion at the factory. Outsourced? I think not.

Your finish issues should have been addressed at the dealer level, and then the dealer should have taken care of the situation. That's part of what we dealers are supposed to do. IF we are given the chance.

If you saw "imperfections" and still bought it, you share any blame. I never hang guitars in my store that aren't proper. I personally do not buy anything that is not what it could be, because that perpetuates a lower standard. I wouldn't think of buying a snowblower that only threw to the right, or a batch of siding for the house that didn't line up.

I still feel that Robin is on the right track. If the general public doesn't get it, more for us. I LIKE the fact that these guitars are OUR secret. When I was a kid, my dad imported a BMW 2002 grey market from Germany. He was an airline pilot that knew of the quality from his trips overseas. Whenever another BMW driver would see us, they'd blink their lights, signalling another "family member". Now that BMW is a snob car(admittedly one HELL of a great snob car), can you imagine anyone blinking? That spirit is lost.

You guys spend too much time thinking, not enough PLAYING. But that's me. I buy guitars to play. If I wanted investments, I wouldn't put my money in new guitars.

Kizanski

01-04-2005, 12:38 AM

I have two 2004 Robins; a Ranger Pro and a Wrangler Slabtop Supreme.

No neck issues to be found, finish or otherwise.

I DO, however, have one of those sawn off headstocks that Greg mentioned sitting on my desk being put to use as a pen holder!!

...and a fine pen holder it is!

Ken Jones

01-04-2005, 12:40 AM

I agree with Smitty.

When I read Jim Lee's post, my intital thought was "Why has he not called or emailed Dave or Allen at Robin Guitars?" In Jim's post, he states:

>>>>"So now I close with a request that Robin management address the issues I, and others have raised. Are you outsourcing and is this the reason for the quality issues I have seen? If you are not, then why has quality slipped? Are you going to address these quality issues?

We, as devoted consumers, need to know." <<<<<<<<

My question is, why do you post these concerns here? I would think that a 2004 Robin would still be under warranty. I know both Dave and Allen and I'm sure that they would be happy to talk to you and would be willing to address any concern you have about your guitar.

Here's their number - 713-957-0470. Let us know what you find out.

Bill Councill

01-04-2005, 05:42 AM

Dave Smith - You state that some of my ideas need to be dismissed. Yet, as the other naggers in this discussion, you don't address the issues but attack the messenger. I would like for you to state specifically which of my ideas need to be dismissed, and then in an unemotional yet orderly fashion, discuss your dissent concerning each of my themes and back them up with examples.

It seems that when someone posts something that this group does not want to hear that it's time to attack the messenger. Jim Lee, as a Robin Lover, has taken the position that the company may be competing with itself primarily because of a perceived quality problem. I find it interesting that no one even attempted to investigate this concern of Mr. Lee's further. As I have experienced, when issues and concerns about Robin Guitars as a viable company are raised, a mob mentality takes over and senior members of this forum attack the messenger. IT IS TIME TO CONDUCT POINT BY POINT DISCUSSIONS OF EACH ISSUE RAISED and stop the attacks on those of us who see a weakness or weaknesses in the company that makes the guitars we all love.

I can't speak for Jim, but have you even questioned why I've brought these issues to the forum? I haven't seen any intelligent discussions of any of my issues; therefore, I surmise that you tend to see me as an object that simply needs to be dismissed, rather than a Robin Lover who would like to realize in my rather short lifetime enhanced name recognition, significantly higher resell values, a professional liaison program, and a host of other changes to ensure that the company we all love continues to produce and market the products we feel so strongly about. My primary fear is that the company is in the precarious position of a takeover target. This is the reason for my reasoned expression of my concerns. I would not like to see Robin become a subsidiary of Fender as the venerable Gretsch has become. But, as Jim has described so poignantly, if others perceive what he has experienced, specifically the poor quality of some Robin product lines' necks, then the company surely will find itself in the position to be taken over by a company with secure brand name recognition.

Face it: Robin Guitars is a great company to takeover to serve as another company's premier custom shop. It currently works, as I am told, on a per order basis. If that indeed is true, since the company has so little brand recognition, which all members so far have either agreed with or have refused to protest, a takeover of the company would serve to enhance the image of a company that cannot timely produce guitars on a per order basis.

If any of you wish to dismiss Ken Smith's, Jim Lees, or my issues and concerns, please do so in the form of a debate on the issues and not as attacks against the messengers. I've also learned that some of those who have dis'd me so are involved in some form of business or other relationship. Therefore, the discussion forum should recognize that much of the sniping on the forum comes from one source that has introduced three people into the discussion, all with a common goal to trash the messenger, and whom are represented by one who considers himself an "instigator." Consider the source and the reason for a lack of spirited debate. And, BTW, does the instigator seek to advertise Robin guitars in the pictures of himself on his Web sites. If not, why won't you be seen playing a Robin? I can only say that I would never be seen in public playing any guitar but a Robin. Despite all the flack I have taken and will continue to take, I can demonstrate in more ways than one that for my own reasons I am a Robin Lover who really believes that the company should succeed on its merits, and that includes the ability to change to meet the market's current and changing needs.

BCRGreg

01-04-2005, 08:39 AM

I get it. This is a joke!

Damn, I thought this was real for a day or so!

(shakes head and grins)

Bill Councill

01-04-2005, 09:18 AM

BCRGreg - This discussion forum is real now and since inception. You have not treated it as a forum for new ideas, for concerns about the company, concerns about the quality of certain product lines of guitars. Your manner of debate is to demean, degrade, alter the theme of discussion, and attack the messenger, rather than to debate each and every issue with which you take issue in an intellectually stimulating, positive debate about how some of the issues raised can be corrected. You are full of snide remarks, such as your latest post. You can dish it out, but you can't take criticism. I, for one, want to know why you don't promote Robins with pictures of yourself with a Robin guitar in hand. I want to know why you have only on Robin guitar for sale on your Web site. I surely want to know why repeatedly you have attempted to derail a real debate about the position of the company among all guitar manufacturers and its future when its main competition is its own guitars and, as your partner has pointed out, the company "is a niche company that is generally unrecognized in the marketplace." I don't believe you have anything of value to add to this forum. You of course are free to speak. But, from now on speak to the issues only or keep your snide remarks and attacks against those of us with concerns and issues to voice to yourself. You have proved that nothing you have said had value in a debate. Either take the time
to formulate "ehxaustive entreaties" in the form of debate to counter the positions I and others have taken or to use Dave Smith's favorite word, "dismiss" yourself from any further self-humiliating and self-demeaniing responses. Dave Smith warned me that with the positions I was taking, I might experience "passionate and potentially heated response[s]. You shouldn't be surprised if you read one of Dave Smith's first remarks to recognize that I can respond in kind, as well as formulate a cogent and deliberative debate. Go take your toilet paper and resell it so that we may have some empirical data for your only real contribution that has been quoted.

I have specified why I have shared my concerns in an ordered and conscientious manner. I would like to know why you have no concerns with the information offered by those of us who are indeed passionate about the continuing success of Robin Guitars and its remaining a self-owned company, albeit with greater brand recognition, higher resale values, and no concerns about quality and perceived value. I want to know why you have used as your only tactic of debate attacks on the messengers, snide and crude remarks, sniping at others with points-of-view, and treating my impassioned discussion about the company becoming the target of a takeover, something none of want to see.

In summary, please only contribute in a positive fashion or subject yourself to analyses of your passive-aggressive and narcissistic behavior. It was said that the forum could get rough on me; I think you are experiencing the converse. Since you have nothing positive to add to a discussion that I really believe you don't understand, the going is surely to become rougher on you.

Oh yeah, why is it that you don't photograph well with a Robin in your arms?

Smitty

01-04-2005, 09:27 AM

Bill, let's get one thing clear right now. YOU WILL NOT set rules for decorum or engagement on this site. I've hinted at that before, let me now be as blunt as possible.

Secondly, sometimes it's equally effective and much less time consuming to simply dismiss a poster rather than debate every minute point they wish to throw into the circle for debate. You suggest an obligation to comment on everything you've said, I see no such obligation.

Third, well, I'll save that for later. Out the door for now. But remember, you are a guest here.

Smitty

Ken Jones

01-04-2005, 09:59 AM

You know, there's probably lots of things I could say, but since I type so slowly, I think my time would be better spent playing guitar.

(How's that for passive-aggressive?)

John Williams

01-04-2005, 10:57 AM

Can't we all just get along?Life is too short,and high blood pressure is the silent killer.Please excuse me while I go play my guitar.Peace

Kizanski

01-04-2005, 11:03 AM

Councill, maybe you'd be taken more seriously were you not so verbose and myopic. If you feel we're "attacking the messenger," I think that means that you've already given your "message" too much weight.

I have never seen so many words used to say nothing.
Perhaps you need a hobby. I would suggest needlepoint, crochet, or some other knitting needle-based craft.

No pictures of Greg holding a Robin?
You need look no further than Greg's band's Web site to see all the Robins you want, being PLAYED, not being held on to as investments.
Perhaps a new eyeglass prescription would fit the bill, Bill.

If you want an answer to the question as to why he "only has one Robin for sale" on his store's Web site, that one is just as easy.
Firstly, you can't photograph what you don't have. He currently has 7 or 8 Robins on order (I should know - one of them is for me), and they're all sold. No reason to post guitars for sale that are already sold, now is there?
Secondly, you have no idea how many Robins he has sold in the past year alone. Two went to me, and a half a dozen that I know of went to others. I don't work there, so I'm quite sure there are others.

If you want to buy Kennedy's guitar, then buy it. If you don't want to buy it, then don't. Either way, make your offers, counter offers, lowball offers, or offers of post-dated checks off the board. He supplied his email address and his home phone number, so in the end, I doubt anyone really cares what YOU think the guitar is worth, and I'm sure he doesn't appreciate reading about how his guitar is not woth much on the used market.

This is not a forum for you to attempt to manipulate a seller into your way of thinking.
Buy it or don't buy it. It's that simple.

So, as Smitty pauses his mouse button over the BAN feature for you, I'd urge you to please watch your step.

BCRGreg

01-04-2005, 11:11 AM

Man, what I could say right now.

But I won't.

Somebody tell this clown that I don't need to answer to him.

Then ask him to post a live shot of him with a Robin.

Burnsy

01-04-2005, 11:20 AM

Greg - You didn't want to say it so bad, you said it twice!

Here's the REALLY important question, though - Do Robins come with a "word of the day" calendar like the ones some of the posters on here seem to have?

Smitty

01-04-2005, 11:25 AM

So much for "unconditional love..."

Smitty

Burnsy

01-04-2005, 11:27 AM

If anyone thinks this is an "intense flame war", then they haven't been around the internet long enough.

You should hear the story about how Dave Smith and I met about 8 years ago, right Dave? :D

BCRGreg

01-04-2005, 11:28 AM

Burnsy, don't make me come over there and straighten YOU out, fella!

Jack Kennedy

01-04-2005, 12:34 PM

Hello Everyone ,
On January 2nd , 2005 I recieved a call in the afternoon from Bill Council regarding the Prototype Avalon Sport.
An agreed upon price of $750 plus shipping cost was reached . I gave Bill the additional time period of 2-3 weeks to purchase the guitar because of finiancial reasons .
I truly hope my late post has not contributed anything negative too this thread thats been going on. I apologize in advance if it has... the only thing I can think of too say at this point is " AMEN "
thankyou,
Jack Kennedy
Blue Lightning

Steve Clay

01-04-2005, 12:42 PM

Wow, I haven't checked the board for a couple of days and look what I missed!

All I can say is that I have owned a Savoy (sold it about 2 years ago for a reasonable price), I currently own a Wrangler Pro and a Ranger Slabtop Supreme. I will have another Robin on order within the week.

IMHO, I don't view Robin guitars as "art guitars", like PRS Dragon's, Gibson Historics, Fender pre-aged Custom Shop creations, etc. For me, Robin's are "players guitars". Made very well, sound great, and they'll take whatever you throw at 'em. Musician-tools. I don't buy tools as investments. My Craftsman socket wrenches are made very well, superb fit and finish, and will take anything I can throw at them. Their resale value sucks, but I don't care. They're (among the) best tools money can buy. Just as Robin guitars are (among the) best.
But that's just my perspective - YMMV.

Jim - I would strongly recommend contacting Dave or Allen at the factory immediately with the concerns you have with your new Robin. I can tell you from personal experience that Dave will not tolerate substandard workmanship from Robin Guitars, and will do everything possible to ensure that any "factory defects" are made right. Everyone at Robin takes quality personally - let them make it right for you!

John Williams

01-04-2005, 12:43 PM

SOLD!The End?Somehow I doubt it......

Steve Clay

01-04-2005, 12:45 PM